Building a motor (from previous board)

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Building a motor (from previous board)

Postby mandoclimber » Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:37 pm

ONLY REASON I MOVED THIS OVER IS BECAUSE OF SOME BASIC ITEMS THAT MIGHT HELPS SOMEONE ELSE......

mandoclimber Jun 3 2009, 02:34 PM Post #1
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I know I am about to open a can of worms but hey I want to get some input from some enthusiasts. I know asking a group of people with varying interest from purist to volksrod will provide a wide range of answers so here we go:

I am going to build a new motor- I want to build a solid motor for daily driving purposes that has the ability to run up and down the highways without any problems (this is all said with premise that the gearing of tranny will also need to be addressed). I have been researching trying hoping to come up with some good answers (reading –VW Beetle Performance Handbook, How to Hot Rod VW Motors, How to Build a VW motor, Bentley Guide, ect…). So having said all that this is what I am contemplating:

2007cc (90.5mm cylinders x 78mm crank). I chose the 90.5mm because I have read that they are less likely to crater due to thicker cylinder walls as compared to the 92/94mm cylinders. I also want to keep the compression at 9:1 or lower so I can still run regular pump gas. I was under the impression that if I exceed 9:1 compression that I would not be able to run pump gas (87-89 octane) but would have to jump up (93+). I have no idea so any input would be great.

I also am wondering would it be more beneficial to run a single 48 or run dual 44’s for carburetion. I am also wondering about valves- I have read that if the motor exceeds 2L then it is wise to change to 42mm (inlet) x 37mm (exhaust) valve. Will I be able to utilize a stock head for this job (after being machined of course)? Suggestion on a cam?

Again I am posting this message because 1) I want to build the motor 2) I would like to hear from some folks rather than reading it in a book 3) I want to know and understand VW’s better than I do.

I understand that a 2007cc will provide me with enough power to cruise up and down the highways; but I also like to have fun with newer imports from time to time. I am about to start the rebuild so any info anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated. Also if this is a pipe dream and should build something different let me know- I am open to suggestions.

Jerel

12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


superwoodrow Jun 3 2009, 03:42 PM Post #2
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Yeah, I've always thought that size motor would be a cool motor to have, as for the cyliders, I've heard the 92's are bad (thin), but the 90.5's and 94's have thick enough walls to last. Definately need to upgrade the heads or all that displacement will be wasted. I don't know what would be optimal for that size but I have 40.5 X 35's in my 1776 so 42 X 37 would maybe be a good palce to start. CBPerformance 044's are great heads to start with IMO. Definately go with duals, I've got 36 IDF's on my 1776, and I drive it every day. Italian Webers or Delortos sometimes come up for sale on the Samba. There's a guy who sells on Ebay, Alfa something, that sells real Weber's and rebuild kits. I've heard the new EMPI HPMX's are better than they were, but I'd still be very afraid. Also go with at least a 1 1/2 in true merged header, maybe 1 5/8. And please, don't just slap a 009 distributor on it. An old school Bosch 010 or 019 would be a good choice with a real bosch blue coil. Maybe RacerDave or Eddie will chime in soon, thay have a lot more experience than me.

Good luck,
Brett
Edited by superwoodrow, Jun 3 2009, 03:46 PM.
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69GHIA Jun 4 2009, 12:59 AM Post #3
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If it were me I would build me a 1776cc motor and put it in. Their alot more reliable on long cruises and they still have decent fuel milage.


Good luck on your build...



mandoclimber Jun 11 2009, 04:58 PM Post #4
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Well the heart of the beast (or at least my bug) will be removed this sat/sun. Let the wrenches fly....

I will post pictures as I go....
12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


69GHIA Jun 13 2009, 12:16 AM Post #5
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What did you deside on? What size etc.?



vdubjim Jun 13 2009, 01:52 PM Post #6
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i agree. 90.5 the way to go.

as for the rest its just what you have for a budget. too big a stroke and your stock mag case wont like it and might consider stepping up to alum case. big valve heads are a def must when in the 2 liter range, they are the bottleneck of the vw engine, hell any engine. i can give you a great deal on an 84mm crank show leftovers..

Alot of what you read in certain forums is all BS, too many people are 'experts' just be reading other peoples posts and not actually doing it. a great forum is cal-look.com for engines. read gene bergs blue books, great reading! i feel he is about 90% correct because most of his stuff is stuck in the 70s old tech, but then again not broke dont fix it, alot of great products are out now days, and alot of them are snake oil or like fishin lures, they just look cool so youll buy it but dont work worth a damn.

if you go over 1835 your going to have to run weber/dellortos. id shy away from dellorotos due to parts avail here in the usa.

used carbs are a crap shoot unless its someone you know and trust. i bought mine from eddie they came off a customers car that was running.

spend your money where it matters, cam, crank, carbs, and what most people forget, CLUTCH and ignition. there is a BIG diff between a bosch blue and a pertronix 50k ignitor. we threw one on my buddys car and had to turn the idle down after just adding the coil!
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mandoclimber Jun 13 2009, 05:59 PM Post #7
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Well as it stands I am going with the 90.5 x 78 for a 2007cc motor. I believe it will be a decent daily driver with moderate power without being a grenade of sorts. My biggest concern is with what vdubjim stated about finding a quality carb system. I have been trying to educate myself by reading and reading some more.

I have ran across a few hurdles that I might be posting up to get some feedback on. I appreciate all the input so far. It has been suggested that I run 40mm intake x35mm exhaust values with heads that have been port/polished. I will also either try and run a pertronix (2nd gen) or a bosch blue.

I appreciate the suggestion on the 84mm but that is going to be too big... (did that sound bad?). Oh well ....

If anyone wants to help just let me know and I will send you directions to the house... LOL.... well I had to ask...


12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


superwoodrow Jun 14 2009, 12:31 AM Post #8
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Sounds like a good strong reliable combo to me. For sure get the port and polish on the heads. That's where the pwer will be. As far as reliable carbs, the guy on Ebay, who sells carbs from Italy (Alfasomething), is where you should look. His feedback is good and I haven't heard of him selling a Weber that couldn't be rebuilt, and they're all Italian made Webers. Also there's a guy on the Samba, Mharney, who rebuilds carbs, both old and new (EMPI) and he can fix you up if you don't want to do it yourself. Pat at CBPerformance, and Jon at Aircooled.net will both help you with jetting. Also Eddie here in OKC I've heard is real good with carbs.

Good luck,
Brett
Charlie don't surf!


vwracerdave Jun 14 2009, 05:31 PM Post #9
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Forget about used carbs. They are nothing but trouble. Step up and buy new Webers. The Webers made in Spain are just as good as the Webers made in Italy. DO NOT get the made in USA Webers. DO NOT get the EMPI HPMX carbs.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... ?id=498853

You might also want to look at the heads DRD sells
Edited by vwracerdave, Jun 14 2009, 05:33 PM.
As featured in DEC 2001 Hot VWs page 63


vdubjim Jun 14 2009, 11:32 PM Post #10
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i get deals on heads and carbs
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mandoclimber Jun 15 2009, 06:36 PM Post #11
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Motor update….

Well as I was preparing the patient for open heart surgery, when I had two very close friends of mine show up with a brand new zero mile 1600cc dual port motor (valve cover to valve cover) for me as a gift . So to say that I was shocked is an understatement. So plans have changed for the next 30 days. I still plan on building the motor but now my timeline has been extended so I get to have a ‘daily’ driver motor to be installed soon- and then a ‘fun motor’ build.

I am going to upgrade the 1600cc motor a bit with a merged header- Weber 44 or 40 (any suggestions) single IDF (decided against duals just for simplicity). How can you know if they are built in Spain vs US (per an earlier comment)- I was going to purchase them from the weber website? I am also going with a serpentine belt system, and a 1.5 at deep sump, Pertronix, and a new oil cooler (doghouse style).

Is there anything else that anyone can see that I have missed the boat on to make a solid 1600 daily driver (aka reliable)?

Vdubjim- what kind of deals do you get on carbs… I can call if you it would be better.

The old motor- well we split the case and saw that the dowel pin on the bearing closest to the flywheel was wallered out both in the case and the bearing…. Not good. I am trying to find out if the case can still be used for building a street motor…. Or if I should just scrap it and start from scratch….. good thing is that I will have my bug back up and on the road after sitting for the past 3 months- granted with a stock motor but I would rather run stock; than sit in the garage. Cruise time is almost here .

I am open for suggestion on the 1600cc and I look forward to building a 2.?? motor this winter.

12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


vdubjim Jun 15 2009, 07:14 PM Post #12
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1600 with a header, STOCK carb MAYBE ICTs for simplicity... idf too big for 1600
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mandoclimber Jun 15 2009, 09:42 PM Post #13
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So you think dual 34 ICT would be better.... how hard are they to set or get sychronized; that is what worries me!!!
12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


vdubjim Jun 16 2009, 04:19 AM Post #14
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not hard. stock is easier but, not too bad at all, and start easy in winter too!
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69GHIA Jun 17 2009, 04:27 AM Post #15
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I have 34 ICT on my car with chokes. U dont need chokes if you dont want them. I got them because it helps on the cold mornings. I like them alot better than bigger carbs because you don't need to adjust them as much as webbers etc. I/ve had them on my car for a year now and have not adjusted them once since installing them. But with that said you dont need to go duel carbs on a stock motor. A single stock carb is just fine if not better than duels. It's all about budget and what you prefer/want.



Good luck on your choice...
Edited by 69GHIA, Jun 17 2009, 04:31 AM.


Well I decided on the KISS principle and I am going back with the a single 34 on the car just for driveablity and simplicity at best.

I will throw my hat over the carb fence with the build this winter. Thanks everyone for your help. I got the same advice from Larry yesterday as well regarding the carbs.

Well I have had a couple of "savy" builders and mechanics inspect the case and can you say "paper weight", looks like the life of that case has been had.

Any creative ideas for the old case? planter? make a practice motor for visual refrence?


12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


69GHIA Jun 18 2009, 04:10 AM Post #17
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This is a pic of my motor that I built. It's a 1776cc with big valve heads, c-25 crank and duel ICT carbs.

Image
Image
Image
Image


This was my first ever motor build. It's been in my car for a year now and still running strong



sourkraut Jul 13 2009, 04:55 AM Post #18
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bah, you guys and your damned webers. My kadrons are as good as your weber ict's and can be had for WAY cheaper. Just have to have patience when tuning... and an aftermarket linkage.
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9fingers Jul 13 2009, 12:24 PM Post #19
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I run a stock 1600 with a weber progressive and a low tuck header. Only internal change is the addition of 1.25 lift rocker arms for better breathing at higher speeds. Been running it this way for three years now with no complaints.
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Because "10" just isn't odd!!!


vdubjim Jul 13 2009, 01:58 PM Post #20
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by time you get decent kadrons and aftermarket linkage thats the price of webers!
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mandoclimber Aug 3 2009, 06:49 AM Post #21
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okay so here is a quick up date.... I was about an hr away from firing the motor up when the wifey went into labor. So here is what I have left to do....

Cut the braided fuel line and install in-line filter
Finish wiring in motor.... just making it neat and clean...

I was less than an hr away from firing it up ..... the best laid plans huh?

So here is my question.... what is the best way to break in a stock 1600 cc motor? I have heard several different methods but what do ya'll think is the best to ensure decent life span for the motor? I plan on firing it up sometime this week!!!! wahoo... finally.... hope to drive it to the next meeting if all goes well with break-in and if I can get away from the house and the new addition.


12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


vdubjim Aug 3 2009, 11:42 AM Post #22
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Most ive seen depends what cam you used. most of them come with break in directions unless you used a stock one.
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vwracerdave Aug 3 2009, 03:39 PM Post #23
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Run it 15-20 minutes at 1500-1800 RPM.
Change the oil and adjust the valves
drive it normally.
As featured in DEC 2001 Hot VWs page 63


mandoclimber Aug 5 2009, 03:36 AM Post #24
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last question before I decide to fire it up tomorrow.... since it is a true stock 1600 (other than pertronix and header) do I need to set the static timing at 5atdc (800-900rpm w/mech advance dizzy).

Sorry about all the quesitons just trying my best
12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


Bugophile Aug 5 2009, 08:01 PM Post #25
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You need to check the engine number to see what it needs. My DP 1600 is a 1971 AE # that requires a 5 Deg. ATDC setting. John Muirs book has all the info.



Bugophile Aug 5 2009, 08:03 PM Post #26
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Check this page out http://reviews.ebay.com/Air-Cooled-VW-B ... 0008318614



gimpy60 Aug 5 2009, 09:46 PM Post #27
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You should put that Muir book in a place where you can't find it till you need a good laugh. Get a bentley manual and be done with it.... cost a little more.....will save you money in the long run.



mandoclimber Aug 6 2009, 05:38 AM Post #28
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I have the Bently, Muir, Haynes, and serveral others..... what I found is that because I am running an 09 dizzy that it needs to be set at 7.5 BTDC..... hope that is right.

Extra note, fired it up for the first time tonight and let it run for about 15 min between 1500-1800 rpms... gonna drain it and set the valves in the AM and work on the carb to get it set-up to idle a bit better. Getting closer to having it road worthy.


12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


Bugophile Aug 6 2009, 09:43 PM Post #29
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I havent had a problem using Johns book and yes it does have some humor. Peace Man!



mandoclimber Aug 7 2009, 12:03 AM Post #30
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OK..... so here is my latest update.... went to fire up the engine last night.... starter is bad... replace starter.... got it started and ran it for 20 mins between 1500-1800 rpm.... drained oil, set valves, checked timing... all good.

Went to back it out of the driveway.... clutch cable broke.... replaced clutch cable....

Took it for a short test drive (around the neighborhood).... low idle is great 800-900 per any book you chose to use.

Got the car warm.... again everything seemed good.

Took it for a short 10 mile test drive... did well for about 7 miles then the idle went south.... the low speed idle was good, but as I accelerated the car would try to die. I adjusted the carb (34 pict 3) per the bentley manual... still no good.

Kept messing with it and finally it backfired through the carb and all was good with idle (not good for the carb). It ran decent to get me home.... but backfired a couple of times... I am at a loss.....

I want to fix this myself but carbs are not my speciality..... anyone have any suggestions.... I am tempted to take it to a shop for a carb set up....

Side note we rebuilt the carb a couple of weeks before I started this motor.... so I feel as though it is in the set up not the mechanism of the carb... but heck I could be wrong....

Any help would be appreciated..... I am so very close to be back on the road.... I will also buy beer if someone wants to come by and help me set it up... just throwing that out there....

Thanks everyone for their help....

Jerel
Edited by mandoclimber, Aug 7 2009, 12:05 AM.
12 million bugs- nuff said
72 std beetle


Well I have it on the road.... I hope to drive it to Tuesday's meeting... Nice to be able to roll in the dub again.
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